Developers Hangout

Francois Lanthier Nadeau | CEO | Gamer | Crypto Dabbler

Episode Summary

In this episode I hangout with the CEO of snipcart Francois Lanthier Nadeau. We chat about Crypto, video games, books and Snipcart!

Episode Notes

Checkout Snipcart at : https://snipcart.com/

 

AI transcript: 

Timestamp Speaker Transcript

00:00.00 developershangout Welcome to developers how podcast today I am met with the ceo of snp cart francois francois why don't you introduce yourself, tell people about snp cart and then we can start hanging out.

00:12.71 Francois Hey hi james thanks for having me so sn cart is a developer first shopping cart platform. It was founded in 2013 and we've been following the web dev space closely and contributing to hit. Ah, via content via integrations a whole bunch of stuff. So yeah, basically you can add snp card to any website. So we're agnostic about the technology that you choose to use snp cart lives in the Frontend. So as long as you have access to your html Source. You're good. And a lot of frontend developers and frontend centric projects use us. But also you know a lot of more traditional setups to coupled cmss of the world and whatnot I'm the ceo over there. My full name is Francois Lanthier Nadeau I've been with the business for 8 years started as a marketing intern then led marketing then became a partner product owner and then ceo and yeah I'm happy to be here sharing some thoughts and just having a chat with you. James.

01:20.29 developershangout Yeah I mean congratulations recent you guys were required um which is which is super exciting for for any business whether you're you've been around for a while or not can you talk about how that acquisition even.

01:24.48 Francois Um, yeah, yeah.

01:37.38 Francois Yeah, yeah, so snp car has always been bootstrapped for those of us who may have followed our journey wrote about it on indieacers and medium and other places but we we came to life inside of a web development agency in quebec city.

01:38.46 developershangout Came about. Nothing.

01:56.24 Francois And eventually we realized the product was deserved a life of its own and we created a different corporation and scaled that that company as a separate entity from that web dev agency. It agency is called spectrum and kuaxity. And um, you know as we scaled the only debt that we had was towards spectrum and in a few years we eventually repaid it and we we enjoyed you know, being a bootstrapped kind of the underdog competing with. Big big giants who had a lot of budget lot of money I think we we managed to to be a cool actor in this space and get some you know developer capital and some social love coming back towards us so that's kind of how we grew we became profitable I think in the. 5 years in or something like that and then as things started to stabilize revenue wise and the team started to scale a little bit more we we got hit with Covid and if you're an e-commerce business. It's bittersweet but being hit by covid means all of your numbers are just like shooting up. Um, so it was it was weird right? A lot of suffering psychologically and economically all over the world. But our revenue our sign-ups are all exploding so we figured that we should own that luck and just like keep our heads down. Take care of our mental health and keep shipping good product. Good marketing. Good support That's what we did and 2020 we had our record year we passed the 1 million ar for the first time ah stayed very profitable. So very interesting spot. That left us in and in 2021 you know for about a year or so since ah, ever since I became ceo I had I had wanted to find a way to bridge the gap between snpp car's actual position. And its potential in the Market. So many developers would come up to us and say hey frank why are you not integrated with let's say shipst station already or why isn't there a native plugin or starter kit for next js or like you know all sorts of stuff.

04:23.64 developershangout Um, this. Ah.

04:26.36 Francois And I think when I when I when I was telling people listen were like only ah barely a 10 team people 10 team 10 people team apologies. They were like oh shit like I thought you were you were bigger than that and people thought you know stamp cart was bigger and more funding and had kind of a. Came with more expectations with regards to feature development support delays and integrations and all that jazz if you couple that with the momentum. Our category was having so let's call it modern and slash headless e-commerce. Ah. It came with a lot of opportunities and I had this in my mind. How can I bridge that gap because I I love our lifestyle business I love how how cool the vibe is. There's not a lot of stress and pressure on me and my teammates you know, but but but I still want us to to actualize some of that potential. So I started looking at different avenues. Lots of vcs were knocking on our doors and you know some? How do you call these folks like ah like Saas firms that just come in and then buy your saas and work on it for 5 years and then sell it. Yeah and a few strategic acquirevers.

05:29.12 developershangout Is not.

05:39.36 Francois Yeah, you know so bigger companies bigger like sister companies that could like literally buy you out. Um vcs weren't I decided against raising some money just because I think the kind of early hypergrowth dynamics weren't a good match with my my. My own psychological profile and my teams so we we didn't want to do that and then the other firms you know was kind of a option. However, eventually we were approached by 1 strategic acquiir which is do the d u d a. It's a site builder and and and things just kind of fell into place. You know we didn't want to sell however, and I remember in the beginning telling there was this woman emailing me saying the the ceo wanted to meet me that. This was a Summer of 2020 and I was like you know what? I'm not I'm not available until next year yeah so I pushed that stuff off and at that point I didn't quite know you wanted to buy snicker but six months later when Twenty twenty 1 came around.

06:38.55 developershangout Was it.

06:50.80 Francois They reached out and I was like geez these guys not give up easy. Um, so we started the discussion. The four partners said you know what I don't we we don't want to sell so let's just throw a draw number out there that they'll probably just refuse and they said yeah sure, let's talk. So. We kind of were forced to seriously consider this and the long story short is that we validated a few things first we said are they serious about buying and by having discussions with them and other people we realized they were very serious sent thing for the price then um. Is there a technical fit like would we see a beautiful product roadmap a beautiful integration between our e-commerce product and their web building platform and surprisingly yes like the more we dug into the product the more we found like interesting avenues to explore and then last but not least was their culture fit. Duda is a bigger organization. They're around 200 to hundred and fifty people they have offices in the states in Brazil and israel so and they've been around since 2 2000 and nine I think so you know they've seen their share of like software or eating the world decades and whatnot. Um, but but we're a very small team and younger than them. So my goal was to say in no way am I going to sell snpguard to a company that makes it shit. To work at snipppard you know what? I mean like this was important for me I love I love the relationship I have with work with my job I didn't want to lose that I didn't want to lose that for employees so we pondered this you know we we looked at glassdoor reviews. We met some other people in a team. We asked people who knew them.

08:21.80 developershangout Who.

08:40.87 Francois And eventually we kind of figured out that you know these guys were cool. Ah, if for the fans of the big lebowski ah, their doda is kind of a node to the dude the the character played by Jeff bridges so for us at Nepcar we always say that.

08:50.46 developershangout Um, yep.

08:57.98 Francois We take our work seriously but ourselves not so much and there was a fit on that on that level. You know I do to and the thing that sealed the deal for us to be frank is the fact that they they really respected what we built at sn card and they were intent on letting us continue to grow it. Like with more resources more backing. It's just that as we hire a bit faster half of our team would be dedicated to building a a native custom ecommerce module inside of doda using our technology and talent. So like when are you add all of these things together. Even if you don't want to sell and you. You take a lot of pride in your independence. It becomes kind of too sweet of a deal to ignore and it's not just about you as a founder. It's also about the the team you know some people stuck around for years with us and we were offering. You know, decent wages but nothing extraordinary. Especially not in the crazy ecosystem of a job market that we have now so by with us do the acquisition we could bump everyone twenty five percent offer stock options slowly but surely upgrade the perks so that was like a net positive for the rest of my team too. So we we decided to go all in you know and it spent ah we spent we spent seven months negotiating back and forthing lawyers fiscalists accountants all that jazz due due diligence everything that that you ear about when.

10:18.79 developershangout Well.

10:30.78 Francois Hear about acquisitions. We we went through it you know and it was very very hard and there were some disagreements between the part. The founding team at Sni card. Um, there was a lot of stress personally on me I was like end theling the negotiations and and and everything. And you know the big the the more you the closer you get to that closing the deal and having the these life-changing events and amounts of money dropping on everyone. The bigger like the more important that kind of gain becomes and you're afraid to lose it so psychologically I struggled a lot but I was happypi I pushed through. Like first order of business when I announced it to the team people sung their contracts. Everything went well announced it our customers no like big backlash or whatever and first order of business. You know I went to my mom and I said all right? So now I'm taking care of the the house the car and the insurance you know so that was my first first thing and like I was very proud of myself for that. And yeah, yeah, I mean that's kind of a fast forward story. It's a long 1 so I've been rambling a bit if you have any you have any questions or input man jump in. Yeah.

11:38.65 developershangout Yeah, no, it sounds like you know with this hypergrowth in ecommerce through Covid which you know everyone was affected by covid 1 way or the other you were even in the you know net.

11:44.54 Francois Um, yeah.

11:53.65 developershangout In the job realm in the net positive or the net negative like you either lost your job or your job became more important than it was a year ago or in the space. For example, you know snp cart ecommerce really really did take off um because people didn't want to go to brick and mortar anymore or.

11:58.27 Francois Ah, ah.

12:08.80 Francois Or couldn't yeah.

12:10.63 developershangout They had to shut that. But yeah or they couldn't exactly um so that's that's awesome to hear that you know I knew you guys were bootstrapped and and when I heard the news that you guys had been acquired I was surprised because because that was it always been your attitude which was.

12:23.23 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:28.92 developershangout Like hey we're bootstrapped and like we're a cool group but also after doing some research of like who acquired you it. It almost felt like it made sense. It just So yeah, it it wasn't like oh it's just some random company that's bought them and now snp cart's going to go away and we'll never see them again.

12:34.81 Francois Yeah, thank you.

12:44.85 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:47.60 developershangout It was the opposite. It was like oh they're cool. They're like a building site that you can like drop pieces in and it looks like you guys can still do what you do every day which is still be very indie which is like hey we're still a small team. We're still cranking out cool products and and.

12:55.53 Francois Oh yeah, Fairman yeah.

13:03.96 Francois Content. Yeah yeah, ah.

13:06.71 developershangout Yeah content everything all those kinds of things that you've been doing all this this whole time is not going away which to me is exciting. It allows you to still be that personality that you guys have been working on.

13:14.68 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and thank you for saying that I mean that was 1 of my fears. You know after all these years of like expressing our our pride and our how we how we managed to get by with ah small resources and blah blah and going. Oh we sold it like ah.

13:34.38 developershangout Um, right.

13:34.41 Francois Damn am I going to look like a sellout like what are what are ah people going to think and you know that that was core to messaging when we announcedunce the acquisition where like sn card isn't going anywhere like the product the marketing the support. It's just going to keep growing and hopefully it all be so for a lot of years right? We'll see how things go.

13:49.75 developershangout Um, yep.

13:52.88 Francois But if I'm being harnessed with you every every ecommerce company that had this Covid Boom going on during the lockdowns and covid right now they have what I like to call the Covid Hangover which is like okay so there was lots of money injected in the economy people couldn't spend.

14:04.48 developershangout Okay.

14:13.11 Francois Physically in the real world so they spent a lot online e-commerce companies benefited blah blah blah now we're seeing inflation rear its ugly ed we're seeing delays and extra charges for shipping. We're seeing orders not being fulfilled. And I think just generally speaking. We're seeing a lot of uncertainty in the economy and less liquidity to invest in like ah ecommerce purchases and this has been like ah like honestly just a punch in the face for us when we realize that our our fall numbers. Things are okay, but usually when we get to fall and we near you know thanksgiving black friday holidays all that jazz like things just start to shoot up always like for for 8 years it's been like that and now it's not you know so it kind of forces you to whoa reevaluate your your. Your approach and so like I can't only ride on that macro trend that macro trend right now is against me so how can I how can I make sure I succeed and where we're who are hard at work at Snprir trying to trying to figure that out and the good news is that there's a there. There's a lot of backing behind us now right? so.

15:11.36 developershangout Right.

15:24.60 developershangout Right.

15:27.10 Francois We have not only like financial resources behind us but also Expertise like some often doing like working with the data Analyst and financial Analyst and and know product expert. You know they have they have vps for everything over there. So.

15:42.87 developershangout Right.

15:45.81 Francois So I can turn around and get that that kind of help and and learn how a bigger company like as matured which process they adopted which 1 do I want to take on or not and yeah, a big big learning experience. A big big challenge for snart these days but ah, but I welcome it. You know, um. It's It's part of the process of like solving these hard problems.

16:07.13 developershangout Yeah, absolutely so talking about you know, having these backings and now having this sort of people that you can turn to what what does the the roadmap for snp cart look like in the next you know. Year or 6 I don't know how far you're planning out right now but like what what What does the future of snp cart as a product and and what do you guys? got got in the works.

16:29.91 Francois Yeah, um, that's actually a great question. So the thing is when we pitched to do the our snp card core roadmap. We call it snp card core now like what we do with the initial business. 80 percent of the stuff in there was already like appreciated and supported by dodo meaning eventually they'd like to see these features live inside of their own platform so that was good. You know, no need to go? um. Need to go and turn around and tell your whole team listen all of these cool things we wanted to do well we're not going to do them anymore. So so that was the good news right? now we have what we call the Jewel roadmap 1 is really about integrating snp cart inside of doa. I won't go like into a lot of length about this 1 it's basically like creating like the the right apis for for 2 systems connect having a new kind of codebase where all of what snp cart affords can live inside that codebase. Yeah. But for sncart core we have a few things coming up so we did the new website recently we used the dato cms and nuxjes in the frontend but some of the more important items on the roadmap are the improvement of digital goods. Like we offer people the possibility possibility of selling digital goods. But it it was kind of limited so we're incrementally improving that feature. Um, we have ah the big big piece is ah easy post integration so by doing customer interviews and i. I tried to adopt the jobs to be done framework when doing customer interviews and I tried my head at that last year and we realized that once you're up and running with snp card and you have you you have success right? So a lot of sales. A lot of orders to be shipped then. That's kind of where snp card's job ends meaning that the amounts of features and needs you have when you're selling and shipping a lot of orders like physically like the labels the packages the freights. The.

18:38.36 developershangout Yep.

18:51.38 Francois Shipping fees choosing the best company endling returns endling updates tracking shipping you know all that this is a whole product in and of itself and being a a bootstrap company. We we logged an independent company. We decided to go This isn't the job our product.

18:57.83 developershangout Right? right.

19:08.27 Francois Let's find a product that ends this job very very well and integrate with it and we we landed on easy posts for now we might integrate with some other ones. So It's going to be interesting some of the features of easy posts will live inside of snow car's dashboard but some of them will live um of course on their on their end. And the goal is to better support merchants right? because we're developers at Heart. So We kind of have intuitions or at least proximity to a developer's Reality. We know the bugs We know the debugging. We know the and the customization challenges they'll they'll have so we can. We can really build for them. More easily merchants. However, the truth is. We're not merchants like we're not running E-commerce stores. So We have to stay closer to these people and customer interviews is is 1 way to do that to to do is do this while I'm struggling and yeah, so.

19:49.00 developershangout Right.

20:05.30 Francois That later part of the funnel of the customer journey where you're all set up. The integration is running smoothly and you're selling a lot of stuff we. We're going to improve on that especially through shipping fulfillment integration. We're we're boosting a car teaming also so this is something that comes up a lot sn cut is very very customizable. But our latest vtree like there are improvements to how we end those css that can make ah Frontend developers lives easier so we're working on that we have some new Gateways we want to support some things like. Apple paying google pay and stripe that we're still not supporting. Maybe I should call the like the pay by installments affirm I think or some yeah yeah, this and then we're going to like beef up subscriptions and make it available on other payment gateways than stripe.

20:48.17 developershangout Yeah, if um, yep, that's 1 of them. Yep.

21:00.52 Francois Because that's like a very powerful feature in snp card that is good for merchants and good for us because there's more revenue and regularity and income coming in. So um, yeah I mean this is just like a tip of the iceberg but some of the stuff we're going to be working on.

21:14.24 developershangout So it definitely sounds like you guys are are all in. We're gonna all in on improving the product because the the the product itself right now I you know I used it for a video recently and and you know I've talked to.

21:21.97 Francois Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah.

21:32.19 developershangout Me and colby faac. ah ah friends so we've talked a few times. Yeah, we're friends so I was talking to him about how how much of a joy this experience it is to just be able to drop a shopping cart into a product and be like and I'm done like there's no like big.

21:32.49 Francois Oh yeah, cool.

21:44.27 Francois Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

21:50.22 developershangout Heavy overload. It's very very simple and if you understand the core mechanics behind it it. It is very good for those you know, easy to build ecommerce sites regardless of tech like I use next year and it took me you know I think I think I sent him a message and it was like twenty minutes later I was done.

22:01.31 Francois And go.

22:08.46 Francois The.

22:09.97 developershangout And I was like this is so cool like I'm so glad that like this is what I decided to use for a video and and yeah you guys have you know I'm I'm glad to hear that that improving the product is there. Um.

22:15.45 Francois Nice. Oh yeah, for sure and and and something that people don't always kind of catch about snp cart in the beginning is that of course like it's a frontend shopping cart that can be dropped into any web app or website but it also comes with a like hosted web app.

22:38.86 developershangout Yep.

22:39.44 Francois Which is the dashboard The Merchant dashboard where you can manage orders shipping abandoned carts discounts taxes currencies. You know all the stuff you need to manage a fully blown ecommerce store already lives inside of our Merchant dashboard. So it's not just a like it's a full ecommerce solution.

22:55.60 developershangout Um, yeah.

22:57.86 Francois It's just that it's frontend implementation is very very lightweight.

23:00.27 developershangout Yeah, and and that's the the best part I think at least from a product standpoint that I've seen is that a lot of the other ecommerce merchants Even if it's they claim it to be fairly Simple. You feel like you have to build and build and build versus snp Cart. It was like drop the front end in and that part's done and hey by the way if you go to this dashboard here is everything and here's where it lives and you can just click around and everything worked really well. Um.

23:18.37 Francois Yes, yeah.

23:26.45 Francois Yeah, yeah I mean the the market is crazy these days like I've seen there's there are so many e-commerce solutions popping up and I when I was younger I used to be like scared shitless right? I'd see. Ah.

23:34.28 developershangout If yep.

23:43.79 Francois Back in the day it was the shopify's buy button came out which was kind of a add to any cart add to any site a a shopving cart and a checkout experience. We were like that's it. We're done. They're going to kill us. They're going to take away. But as I grew older I kind of realized that.

23:47.38 developershangout Yep.

24:02.27 Francois The Ecommerce Pi is just expanding right? like and if you if you look at like boring statistics of the percentage of total consumer purchase going from physical but ecommerce it just it's just going up right? So especially when you're independent and you're not trying to compete against.

24:05.92 developershangout Yep.

24:21.20 Francois Amazon or shopify all you need is a thin slice of that huge pie and like serve these people well have a product market shit with these people and and then you're good to go right? You can grow up so that's kind of what we we did at Snp Cart. And now what we're going to see like and can this keep working now that they are macro force is kind of more shaky and in in play. But yeah, fun stuff.

24:44.82 developershangout So you you talked about how you transition from being the an intern right? Thus that was your first role at sn car all the way to ceo like what was the so when you took on that from going from I guess operations to leadership like how how did you manage that like.

24:51.14 Francois Ah, hit it.

24:59.76 Francois Yeah, yeah.

25:04.34 developershangout What was I Imagine that's a very big change to go from like being a day to day guy doing day to day jobs into this like you've got to look at this huge picture of of sn cart in the future. Ah how how did that go and ah maybe you can talk about a little bit about that.

25:07.99 Francois Yeah.

25:13.87 Francois And said.

25:19.22 Francois The yeah I mean to this is this is a learning that is still in progress very much. So um, so being a very small startup in the beginning was mostly charles and me and then 3 2 or 3 other. People in the first five years. Let's say so your vision of growing the company is to say okay, what are the operational problems. We need to solve and let's solve them quick or let's experiment quickly put stuff out there ship code ship content you know marketing. See what works iterate on that and like like your your ally in the beginning is speed right? You can iterate very fast and you're very very close to your customers and you can do things that don't scale so in the beginning you kind of internalize that to grow or to solve Problems. You have to do stuff.

26:15.40 developershangout Right.

26:16.57 Francois Have to write a blog post get some backlinks ship a feature create an integration like you're very very focused on doing things and actually doing them like and not just listing them in a roadmap or something. So. This is embedded in your core when you're like 2 3 four 5 people so that's for so 5 or 6 years five let's say 5 years that's what I did and eventually I became like the lead marketing so I had people to manage. But I was still very much involved in the operations like I was doing a analytics I was doing reporting I was doing content I was doing pr the kinds of interviews I'm doing now. Ah in chess I'm doing now. So very very still in in the ups. But. When you get to ceo and you get to right now I think we're 13 people and we want to be 20 by the end internet next year so it's not huge numbers. But it's big enough for you to have to shift your mindset which is my reflex when there's a problem in the company.

27:20.46 developershangout Right? so.

27:30.97 Francois Is to go Well you what the hell I'm just gonna roll up my sleeve and then just you know Google some stuff on how to do this ping my network and say hey I got to do this ad thing or I got to do this tracking thing. How can I help me please and then get my hands dirty and try to fix it. But right now. This becomes counterproductive when I do that because this takes away from learning experiences or just opportunities to shine that that now belong to my team and not to me, you know so 1 of my good friends I was having lunch with him and I was saying.

28:01.13 developershangout Right.

28:08.88 Francois Traffic is going down I think I should get back into that like marketing game and like take four weeks to do and he was like no man your job isn't to to go and fix the problems your your job is to go and find the people find the good people motivate them give them goals. Give them incentives be around them. Find them great teammates and colleagues that they're inspired by and like you're building like a team Now you're not necessarily like building I Know Content Strategic What I used to do off Content. So This to me is still. Ah.

28:38.93 developershangout Right.

28:46.40 Francois Still a challenge and especially when it comes to marketing you know because it was my quote unquote baby and like I built ah the whole content an seo machine that that drove our growth so when I see it suffer I'm like ah shit I got I got to do something about it. But right now. Ah we we have 2 talented persons that have. Um, coaching over there and trying to put in the right direction. We got a bit of help from a consultant that I know that it's going to maybe help us move the needle organically. And yeah, so that's the bigger thing. That's the bigger thing and then taking the actual time to not do busy work. Because I like I'm a bit lazy so doing busy work is easy right? This is you open your inbox you open slack and you can do busy work all day like literally ten hours a day I could do busy work.

29:30.63 developershangout Yep.

29:37.76 Francois So replying to this supplier handssering a slack machine thing just helping out here and there but you're not achieving a lot of things and you're especially not thinking about the mid to longterm So that's something I also learned from George was my ah ah.

29:49.67 developershangout But.

29:55.44 Francois The founder of spectrum. The agency that we came from and who was my he was my my partner and him and vincent and charles. So we were four and then george and vincent existed when when we did the acquisition and but but george was always like 2 steps ahead like of like strategic Moves. So. If like something was going. Not so great with an employee he already had like 2 people in mind in his network that could maybe come in if there was like client needs coming up. He already knew who you would hire to serve this and so yeah, he was very like. Strategic in that sense and I try to do the same because you want to build you want to build with great people. But you also want to like inject a bit of redund density in your team where at 1 point if someone leaves it shouldn't impact the whole team right? You should either have processes or a big enough team in place that can support that. Or someone else that can fill in that role so trying to see in advanced a bit and the the last thing I'd say is a shift from ah looking at what works now to looking at what will work in 1 2 3 five ten years and that's that's that's harder for me because I haven't done as much. But I used to complain a lot when I was doing all the marketing that I never had time to to do big picture stuff and now I have it but it's like you have to you have to not do busy work. You have to plug away like research and think and this isn't the same kind of work. You know. but I but I love it I just have to do more.

31:30.79 developershangout Right? Yeah I can imagine that being a very hard for for anyone that's been in that but like I'm the same way right? like I I always want to solve a problem immediately like if something comes up. Yeah yeah, I'm like okay all right I'm in the code base. Let's figure out what's wrong and and you know I.

31:41.47 Francois With code hit.

31:50.25 developershangout Before the role I'm in now I was a manager and I managed a team of 3 um, which was five when I left but it was the same thing it would be like oh hey we have this problem I can't figure it out and instead of being um you know i.

31:52.20 Francois Okay, cool.

32:08.90 developershangout Get right in there in the codebase start typing away and let's fix it together I had to like learn how to step away from that slowly and be like you know what? here's a really good resource. Go and talk to that Guy. It's going to be a learning Experience. He'll be able to help you out and then you know come back and tell me what you've learned or you know. Tell me if you solve the problem or if you need more help guidance. Whatever and it was so hard for me. It took me months of like actively being like so here is somebody else that can help you even though I Really really want to be in there and helping you with the code like um, yeah so I imagine.

32:30.85 Francois Yeah, yeah.

32:41.59 Francois Yeah, yeah.

32:46.30 developershangout Even at a higher level than that going from management to like big big picture stuff and thinking about two years five years seven years from now like that must that must really be challenging for anyone.

32:55.58 Francois You know another another thing I think we could add to that is that when you hire people who are especially the junior people um like your point of reference shouldn't be how you would have done this when you were still doing this right. Because that you had a lot of experience had had fuckups in the past and new newest shit. But that new person I feel like in the beginning I was very irritated when like the the work or the the final output wasn't the way I would have done it or. Like as as tight as I would have loved to to see it and eventually I realized that there's a lot of there's actually a lot of value in letting people do ship something out that isn't perfect but isn't bret Brand damaging. Let's say and maybe it's ah 607080 percent done or great and. Just getting some stuff out there and letting them have actual to do actual work living in the wild that you can do give feedback on like this creates kind of learning momentum and I became more less. Less worried about the the degree like of quality or the because I know that like if you're investing in the person this will come you know and and and if I look back at the first blog post I was writing these were shit you know like ah like we we we had a low audience. So.

34:15.15 developershangout Um, yeah. Um, yep, hundred percent Thanks.

34:26.79 Francois Thank god for that because they didn't see the the wax stuff I was writing but like I did a lot of mistakes right? So I have and and I that's how I got good. So I have to allow this for especially for the junior people so that that helps me a bit with management to let go right. And and and the the delegating part for me has been has been kind of forced upon me because I still have residual like concussion symptoms I did a few concussions like four of them and sometimes my energy like I just can't spend more time on a computer for instance.

34:43.79 developershangout Yep.

34:59.16 developershangout That right.

35:01.76 Francois Or I'm low energy or something like that and I can't do the things like I literally can't do all the things sometimes just makes sense to rely on that that team that you're building and delegate and so um, yeah.

35:13.65 developershangout Yeah, so during the pandemic. Um it for me, you know things like mental health and personal fitness all went down the drain I think it did for everybody. Um.

35:27.61 Francois Yeah, yeah.

35:28.84 developershangout Because you know I can go to the gym that I go to down the street or whatever you know all those things kind of went away. Um you ah recently hired a personal trainer at some point.

35:39.23 Francois Yeah, so that was something I told my close friends and family if I nailed this acquisition deal I promised that I'm going to hire our personal trainer to invest some money into what really matters So what like health right? and so I did.

35:53.94 developershangout Yeah, so.

35:58.26 Francois And it was a nightmare in the first weeks I wanted to throw up and I was ah I had ah I had a lot of injuries from my wilder Past. Let's say and so I became very ah scared like I'm scared of like ah. Like ah spinning energy or pushing on something or like I'm always scared and but to like hurt myself or worsen my injuries but this dude like yeah he had had some similar injuries and he had a very like positive approach to that and like he knew went to push well went not to push and. So I think having that kind of people guiding that person guiding me was was very key for me and I saw it was art in the first weeks but now I'm seeing like honestly life changing effects on my mental health. Um the the amount of anxiety that has just gone away. And some like some obsessive like objects that I always focus on and then stress and then get anxious like some of them. You know I am able to think about them and just not not worry too much or none just stress and I mean apart from I became a vegetarian also at the same time. So this might develop who knows um. But yeah I mean that's the the most the biggest change and for my mental health like right now I go to the gym and I don't even think like oh I'm going to get some gains and like I have a bigger bigger muscle structure. Whatever I'm just like oh dude I'm going to be more healthy.

37:22.11 developershangout Right.

37:31.20 Francois But especially I'm going to be less anxious and that's very very important for me. Thank.

37:33.70 developershangout Yeah I'm I'm very much the same way. So I also go to the gm and and my thoughts aren't oh I'm gonna be huge I'm gonna be this huge dude that's like walking around um massive Mars all I'm thinking about is this gives me mental clarity.

37:43.20 Francois So yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's cool and.

37:49.54 developershangout I get ah an hour of the gym before I start my day and like I have this this this mental clarity and I almost feel calm and I lost all of that in in Covid times obviously because I couldn't go to the gym and there was you know you couldn't buy gym equipment anywhere.

38:04.71 Francois Yeah, for head right.

38:07.34 developershangout You you know you couldn't buy a single dumbbell anywhere or or a bike or a peloton or whatever like all of that had gone and and so yeah, it really did affect my my mental health and look and luckily gyms in my area where I live they've been open almost a year now

38:12.75 Francois Not right I believe you.

38:24.89 Francois Core nice.

38:26.97 developershangout So so I've been been able to go back and get into my regular routine but people that I think people don't realize how much good workout can really help mentally set from the physical part of it where you yeah you know Cardio Health whatever.

38:38.71 Francois That's crazy. Yeah yes, crazy.

38:44.10 developershangout But like the mental aspect of of working out really adds clarity to it to a day.

38:44.37 Francois Yeah, and you know like when I was a teenager and a kid I used to be a very like like sports driven guy did a lot of sports and was talented in that but I kind of lost it with adulthood then.

38:53.97 developershangout The phone.

39:02.36 Francois When I read stuff about mental health when I saw therapist and psychiatrrist everyone was saying oh this is very important. It has to be part of your life igiene and ridgiment and blah blah blah and even I when I was talking about mental health like I did some Ta Moya How you say that like some testimonials and some videos and.

39:17.92 developershangout If.

39:21.37 Francois I was saying oh this part like mental exercise and fitness is very important but I was you know taking it very seriously myself I wouldn't I would go on long walks I would do a hike here and there I would do a little but never like real physical effort and like that like. Changes the chemicals in your body and your mind and once I started doing it I was like Jesus I should have like listened to my own advice more yeah for sure. Yeah.

39:39.55 developershangout Yeah.

39:46.79 developershangout Yeah, shouldn't listen to it years ago, right? That's always the yeah for sure. Um, so outside of of you know the health stuff I guess a big part of ecommerce and and then things in general is maybe the thoughts on on sort of. Bitcoin web 3 crypto all that kind of stuff like are you you keen in that space are you ah you what what what's your thoughts on web 3 yeah.

40:05.48 Francois Ah, yeah, get there is so many things to say about this. But so when we were a bit younger soilian uni 1 of our friends. Kind of fell down the bitcoin rabbit hole that was years ago and he was kind of our local prophet. You know he he didn't he never kept his mouth shut about it. He kept going on about it told us to buy bitcoin buy bitcoin by Bitcoin explained us how the whitepaper worked out.

40:25.65 developershangout Um, even a.

40:42.40 Francois This would like the biggest things is the internet and what's funny is that dude had given us like a bad and investment advice when we were younger and we had lost I don't know maybe 80 bucks. But at that time it was very meaningful in our network. You know we're like f you dude, we're not going to buy your sketchy thing again.

40:48.29 developershangout Um, means. Right.

41:00.44 Francois And eventually it was so persistent that we kind of all did you know and that was back when bitcoin was like hundreds of dollars. You know? So what I told him is like can you promise me that this is going to help me clear my student loans or something and he was like yeah 1 hundred percent.

41:07.71 developershangout Um, right? yep.

41:20.20 Francois I said Okay, let's do it. You know and it eventually it did help me cure that but now I wish I didn't use it to clear that you know what I mean Um, and yeah I kind of got into bitcoin a lot now. It's so I'm softly involved. Let's say like I old and.

41:25.59 developershangout Um, right? yep.

41:39.60 Francois I Read about it here and there so listen to some podcasts I Really like the ethos of bitcoin and like there is so much Serendipity in bitcoin in how it was created by whom like someone unknown Entity Satoshi. And how that person or group disappeared and never moved their coins and like the mining and the distribution was very very fair in the beginning and it survived a decade more of. Social political technical attacks. You know some would say it's and and I fragile I Love It. You know I think I think it's freaking great and I think it's like the best hedge you can have against maybe more traditional systems like. Not necessarily collapsing but struggling and I'm also a big fan of its ah decentralization and like resistance to censorship and like you see you see like kind of not fairy tales but staple tales in the bitcoin.

42:30.97 developershangout Right? right.

42:47.67 Francois Evolution where take el salvador recently like the whole country that Bitcoin has a standard right? So that this is this isn't a perfect story and there's probably some some wax stuff also going on in Salvador I don't know everything but like it's such a powerful story to say oh a country which.

42:55.34 developershangout Yep.

43:06.19 Francois Like historically at a shit economy and a lot of corruption and blah blah blah now that country is like is running on bitcoin like that's like that's a powerful they think to say and it it can inspire a lot and you've seen countries with a lot of like deflated or it. Highly inflated. Sorry um currencies like ah venezuela zimbabwe and there was this other 1 that I always forget but like some people were able to like save some of their life savings by by going into this alternative economy that isn't like. Centralize and governmentment control. So yeah, it's a rabbit hole I think people should definitely just like at least start by reading the white paper is satoshi and try to understand why people are talking about this and the myth that oh it's just a financial asset and it's too late to get into it because the price is so high this is bullshit. Like ah bit bitcoin is a cap number of of course they're going to be mined and it's a deflationary currency. So like value is cargo up and utility to you see it with people say oh you can't like buy a coffee with the bitcoin know that's not true anymore. You got the lightning network and you can do it in a snap. So um.

44:15.18 developershangout Um, yeah.

44:21.30 Francois Beautiful technology and people should really get into it now that's kind of my bitcoin I'm not a I wouldn't call myself a maximalist of any sort but like my leanings and allegiances. Let's say are very much schwartz bitcom. However, um, um. Um, able to see that there is if not value enough hype and capital and excitement going on in webtree generally for for it and to result into something interesting. Like is it's a very bubblebbish situation. You have kind of nuts mechanics going on with the Nftds drop and then people reselling it and people becoming like part of ah, an ifft tribe with the you know? Ah, what's the. The ape thing and the the lion the laz li ends and the punks and like I think culturally, it's very very interesting to see and maybe nfd's like become the way we we kind of have ah status symbols in the future in 1 way or another whether it's.

45:16.86 developershangout Yep yep.

45:32.41 Francois Metaverse or just like our our profile pictures and some Twitter or whatever I think it's interesting I think it's ah it's too early to say like if this is going to be a life and world changing thing. But I think dismissing it entirely is maybe naive. And so I looked into it a little bit I'm not highly, especially involved in the nfd community. But I think it it has a lot of potential for for many use utility cases and not just ah, not just digital art which I think is like a legit use case in and of itself for what for for that matter.

46:05.50 developershangout Yeah, yeah.

46:09.77 Francois And yeah, other than that you have this whole these old other ecosystem. So yeah, ethereum that has a lot of things being built upon it and that has for better or worse like you know, survive the this't a decade I think but like a long time and yeah, and.

46:24.80 developershangout A long time. Yeah.

46:29.80 Francois Is they're going to be like a very serious utility that comes from that I don't know but they found ways to to generate developer interest and investor interest and just tons of coins living in tokens living on top of that so we'll see and yeah I kind of wonder how. How this thing is all going to play out but like why not just drop 1 hundred dollars or 2 hundred dollars into just just like give you a tiny tiny bit of st and if you can't afford to drop that don't do it like or drop twenty dollars right this is not investment advice but just like.

46:53.14 developershangout Right.

47:06.21 Francois Be curious about this this this thing we're technologists right? We build stuff online. We build stuff with technology like this deserves at least curiosity. So yeah, that's that's kind of how I feel about the whole thing you.

47:19.68 developershangout Yeah I Um I mean I'm in the same boat. So I own a small investment in in bitcoin. Um, because yeah I believe in this same vein as you that bitcoin will you know it's never too late to get into bitcoin whether you get in now at Sixty K or you got in out a hundred dollars.

47:26.10 Francois And.

47:37.51 Francois I yeah.

47:39.58 developershangout Like yeah if you got a hundred dollars. You're in a real good spot right now and you've hold this for a long time. Um, so yeah, I've always been kind of in that space. Um, just kind of dabbling here and there I think Nftts are I think there's some you.

47:42.74 Francois Yeah, yeah.

47:56.62 developershangout Utility use there. That's not being used right now like the digital art space is super cool and I think it allows people to to maybe understand a bit more behind what the crypto space is um and I own an nft I have 1 um and.

48:10.36 Francois Yeah, me too.

48:14.35 developershangout Yeah, exactly I own 1 single and nf and that'll probably be. You know the only 1 I ever own. Maybe we'll see um and I think you I think your you sort of vice there of like why not dabble, a small amount of money like if you've got a spare hundred dollars that you were thinking about investing in.

48:19.86 Francois Yeah.

48:32.50 developershangout Stocks and shares of tesla for example, like if you wanted to buy a partial stock. Um, why not invest in the crypto space instead. Um yeah, you're right with technologists. We build did people believe that react or vue or the Jamstack was going to make this big like.

48:34.64 Francois Is yeah.

48:49.16 Francois The yeah.

48:50.67 developershangout Force into web 2 point zero right? if you look when when I started out a decade ago nobody was talking about any of this technology like javascript was still seen as like this red headed step child of of of the internet and you could only use it very sparingly and like everything was built.

49:03.40 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

49:10.43 developershangout You know from the backend and you know.

49:11.10 Francois Um, yeah, no totally agree and I mean don't underestimate the power of of culture. Also right? like ah you you see it in the web tree space like whole tribes and languages and acronyms and and memes of of.

49:17.30 developershangout Um, bright. Yeah.

49:25.69 developershangout Um, yep.

49:30.58 Francois Very quickly evolved and they have significant influence right? They can ah these things like let's say like memes move markets today right? It's not just like a piece in the new york times that you read that's going to affect whatever is going on like people and memes and how it spreads.

49:38.60 developershangout Um, yeah.

49:49.47 Francois This all plays out so things could go faster than we thought and to go back to the Jamstack I Remember when Matt billman from netlify told me like oh yeah, we we've been working with ton press and warner and. We think like the modern static web is a bad name so we want to like coin something that's a bit more catchy. They'll help people rally rally and ah he said jamstack and I thought to myself. Wow, that's a shit name but like but yeah, you know so.

50:11.98 developershangout Um, yeah, right? yeah.

50:16.93 Francois But then again I was also always open to experimenting with content and like placing long bets and that's kind of what we did at snffard and to be like really honested. We dominated the serb for a bitd there like not anymore. But because but. But you know and when when we started creating content around Jamstack. The biggest search volume was around Jamstack the guitar amplifier that was still in the surp back then you know so he had like a shitty mixed serp on google results. Um, but yeah, like.

50:40.94 developershangout So.

50:49.87 Francois Many of our personal growth. Our careers. Our businesses were positively influenced by this new this new way of building. So so don't underestimate. Yeah, the the next thing I guess.

50:56.10 developershangout Um, yeah, so.

51:03.40 developershangout Yep, yeah, and I mean I owe a lot of my later you know career to to the Jamstack like I I put a long bet on next when next was still in yeah, a very good bet now it was in the infancy and like.

51:09.37 Francois Yep.

51:12.83 Francois Good bet.

51:19.94 developershangout Gatsby was still dominating the space like hard and next was like this thing that people and I was like I'm betting on this underdog I guarantee they will be the future and I built a lot of content on next before it really took off in like you know nine point 3 nine point.

51:20.59 Francois Yet it a.

51:37.76 developershangout To space of next. So I built before then so I've been reaping the rewards since then basically because I was like that's my long bet is that like next is going to be the next hot thing and I'm I'm glad that I put that bet on because here we are.

51:42.70 Francois And.

51:47.64 Francois Um, did you see did you see like that the the guy from Sveld wasisco what's rich rich harris that is now ah working with verel. Yeah, that's huge right.

51:55.84 developershangout Yes, rich. Yep yep, part the cell? Yep yeah, that's that's gonna be huge in the space and I I don't know how many people know how big that's going to be having the backing of like Grandma and ver sale.

52:05.45 Francois Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

52:15.42 developershangout Behind sphal and having him as part of the team. It basically means that next and svel will be tightly coupled and you'll be able to build some really cool stuff. Um.

52:17.22 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah.

52:23.47 Francois Yeah, yeah, that's gonna be insane. Yeah, um, yeah.

52:33.30 developershangout So we're basically coming to the end of the show but I want to cover your top picks that you wrote in the dock because the top picks are exciting. Ah because I'm a big I'm a big I'm a big video game fan I'm a big movie buff. Um.

52:36.46 Francois Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

52:47.61 Francois Okay.

52:51.61 developershangout So let's start with your couple of picks that you have for video games which are super exciting for me at least.

52:54.48 Francois Yeah, okay, so yeah I picked ah I picked a that loop and then back for blood so that loop is this nuts ah like time loop. Like you kind of groundhog dating that you replay always the same day. But ah it has a road like road light vibe to it where some of the stuff you can't carry with you when the day restars and like it's it's. Insane the amount of new Details New Information. You kind of lore you get into every time you go through a whole day and the mechanics are just Crazy. It's ah arcane Studios I think it's the 1 The the people who made the dishonored 1 and 2 and like it really feels dishonored and there's even like.

53:37.29 developershangout Give him.

53:47.15 Francois Crazy theory that it is in the same universe. Not a crazy theory a good theory you can look it up on Youtube. So first person shooter I love it. It's sixty s teamed the music the calls the the design so the art direction is crazy I play this by myself mostly. And then yeah, back for blood is just this spiritual successor the left for dead a co-op zombie game that I used to play when I was younger with some friends and now it's it's a bit more sophisticated like there's a card system and whatnot. But. You know it's just good fun to plug a plugin with a friend and go through some missions and excursions and shoot zombies and talk. But it's it's actually kind of difficult or maybe I'm just like very new about it. But ah. Yeah, like you you cannot just mindlessly shoots on Bees. You kind of have to think about oh am I gonna throw this propane cane over there can over there. So yeah, back for blood of course very gory and violent. But I like I like the the multiplayer. So that's for yeah that's for a video games. Are you playing anything on your own. Oh nice, cool.

54:53.63 developershangout Um, I just started deaf loop which is yeah I I just picked it up ah like a couple of weeks ago and yeah, it's you're right? It's very much like Phil's very dishonest like you can be very sneaky and sneak around and it has that vibe to it.

55:09.83 Francois Yeah.

55:11.81 developershangout The color and the art. It's It's gorgeous and I've been really really enjoying the whole thing from the minute I started it I was like this game is going to hold my like you can just start a run whenever and like you can have a really like cool like you can just explore the world and look for tiny details.

55:21.49 Francois And yeah, it's cool.

55:27.86 Francois Yeah, ah a.

55:30.57 developershangout And the law the way that they lay out The law is so good like every time you go through the loop. You're like Ha I found something out new and then like that leads to another breadcrumb and yeah so I've been playing that a lot recently and I've been having a blast. So yeah I'm glad I'm glad it was on your list when I saw it I was like yes somebody else to talk to? um.

55:41.38 Francois Cool. Yeah, nice.

55:50.46 developershangout Yeah, and so the next topic you have for a movie is dune the movie I haven't seen it yet. But maybe give your and know thirty second review of of what you thought? Yeah, yeah, how you thought what you thought and and would you recommend.

55:52.52 Francois Oh yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Of 2 yeah, um, so ah, the director didn't even have is actually a quebecer right? if you look at any of his interviews you'll hear the strong tech quebec accent and I'm a big big fan like of his work. I think like the way creates set pieces where like ah the whole atmosphere environment kind of relies on very like specific colors and like that you can feel a scene is very. Potent like with with color and richness that I really like visually speaking I really liked it some I think some people criticize that it was too like mono chrome or monotone or something like that I didn't didn't even see that I loved it. So visually, it was a masterpiece and I'm a big science fiction fan. However, I had never read dune I kind of knew the premise I tried to watch the nineteen eighty s movie didn't kind of stick. So I I didn't know a lot about the story in and of itself and that. I rarely say that. But for me, it was a plus like I went into this movie with low regular expectations. Of course its that didn't even have movies or I had some expectations but I was blown away the actions great the way they construct the science fiction lore where there's this kind of. Not spoken about background where intelligent machines almost killed all of humanity so they banned them so there's kind of a low techch approach inside of dune where a lot of ah hint-to-hand fights and. Yeah, yeah, I really found it dope and the the score was was great too. So I think people should look into it.

57:53.31 developershangout Cool. Yeah, it's definitely. It's on my list to watch I just haven't had time I was on vacation last week I probably should have watched it then but um, yeah I also tried the same thing as you which is to watch the nineteen eighty s dune and I just it wasn't for me and um.

58:06.41 Francois Yeah I.

58:11.95 developershangout And yeah I never read the book I am a big book fan and I've never read the book and it is on my list of like old books to go back and read Um, but yeah I'm looking forward to to catching it and and seeing seeing what the hyper is about um, let's talk about robots and empire.

58:16.89 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, isaac asimov so um, um, my goal was to finish like to read all of the asm of like there's robots foundation empire I don't remember like all these series of asimov before looking watching the Amazon show.

58:29.56 developershangout Yes.

58:41.23 developershangout Um, yeah I think so yeah.

58:43.55 Francois Amazon the foundation show. Yeah so but I'm um I'm struggling to finish the Robot series I really like it. It's just like reading and not doing audio books is hard for me and this this last 1

58:58.34 developershangout Yep.

58:59.59 Francois Ah, robots and empire for the Robot series I couldn't find it on the audible or some audio version. So I had to buy the print and um I'm starting to read it and the way he develops plots that span decades centuries millenia. And it's in the same universe and it all ties back together like it's very cool. It's very very cool and it's kind of almost like a guilty pleasure of like thinking about the tree laws of robot robotics robotics and how it impacts the. Psyche of robots and what they do or don't don't do so I really I really like it I think it's ah it's interesting to see I'm I'm at a place where you know humans from earth have started colonizing utter. Other galaxies and systems and the the first the spacers the kind of the the early early humans who colonized it are kind of stuck in their ways and there might be a war looming. Um, and yeah I really like it.

59:58.19 developershangout Awesome. Yeah, it's out I haven't actually read that series I I know of the series And yeah I'm I'm the same way I haven't read them but they're definitely on I'm I'm a big like sci-fi that. That's my big thing like I grew up.

01:00:03.25 Francois Okay.

01:00:10.57 Francois Yeah, yeah.

01:00:13.20 developershangout Science My dad wrote read science fiction to me my whole like childhood and stuff. So yeah I'm I'm pretty lucky in that space and I think I'll have to add this to my list. This is why I love doing this podcast cause I find new things to read or watch um and then let's talk so you turn you said you turned vegetarian and you put a few vegan restaurants. So.

01:00:17.40 Francois That's cool. Yeah yeah.

01:00:29.18 Francois Yeah, oh yeah I I'm in quebec city but I'd say on a two thousand half away from Montreal and Montreal is a much more cosmopolitan place. You know there's much more diversity in all sorts of ways.

01:00:33.20 developershangout Where are you located just so people have an idea. Okay, right? yeah.

01:00:48.25 Francois And my my girlfriend is vegan so when we go to the restaurant we try to find vegan options and in montal is just next level compared to here so in in Montreal you have like the lola rosa which is crazy good. It's kind of a not high end but kind of fancy way to eat vegan. Bowhead pub if you want to do like nasty like junk food and like pub food but that is 1 hundred percent vegan. We were blown away by that and I went to the Green panther. They have a few restaurants I think in Montreal and like for a healthy lunch with some people was just great. So these 3 restaurants and in a manre. All I highly recommend.

01:01:29.20 developershangout Awesome! So we are at the end of the show. This is your time to plug anything you want. So what? what would you? if if if any listeners haven't checked out snp cart What? what would you tell them to just head to the website or.

01:01:32.79 Francois Yes, oh.

01:01:43.88 Francois Yeah, you can do snpar dot com and try to. There's a demo easy to access if you want to play with it if you want to learn more about the acquisition Story I wrote about it on my blog. So that's f Lainado dot com. Maybe we can links.

01:01:59.92 developershangout Yeah I'll put a link in the show notes for that 1 So that people can find it.

01:02:01.87 Francois Somewhere and and if you want to talk about product about marketing about startups about mental health. All that stuff you can dm me on Twitter I try to find some time to chat with people who have similar interests and challenges. And yeah I hope everyone's doing well keeping fit staying healthy. Oh I'm going to israel in like 2 days treelas. Yeah to see some folks that from do the so a nice trip coming up you listen james I hope things are good on your end. We haven't talked about tina maybe we can do this another time.

01:02:24.32 developershangout Nice.

01:02:31.79 developershangout Autumn.

01:02:35.34 developershangout Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:37.92 Francois But I hope things everything that are are good and I really appreciate you sharing some time with me here.

01:02:41.41 developershangout Yeah, me too I appreciate you coming out and yeah I had ah I had a blast The hour went past real quick. But thank you so much.

01:02:47.30 Francois Same yeah after real. Thanks man.

 

Episode Transcription

This is an AI transcript

00:00.00 developershangout Welcome to developers how podcast today I am met with the ceo of snp cart francois francois why don't you introduce yourself, tell people about snp cart and then we can start hanging out.

00:12.71 Francois Hey hi james thanks for having me so sn cart is a developer first shopping cart platform. It was founded in 2013 and we've been following the web dev space closely and contributing to hit. Ah, via content via integrations a whole bunch of stuff. So yeah, basically you can add snp card to any website. So we're agnostic about the technology that you choose to use snp cart lives in the Frontend. So as long as you have access to your html Source. You're good. And a lot of frontend developers and frontend centric projects use us. But also you know a lot of more traditional setups to coupled cmss of the world and whatnot I'm the ceo over there. My full name is francois ancinado I've been with the business for 8 years started as a marketing intern then led marketing then became a partner product owner and then ceo and yeah I'm happy to be here sharing some thoughts and just having a chat with you. James.

01:20.29 developershangout Yeah I mean congratulations recent you guys were required um which is which is super exciting for for any business whether you're you've been around for a while or not can you talk about how that acquisition even.

01:24.48 Francois Um, yeah, yeah.

01:37.38 Francois Yeah, yeah, so snp car has always been bootstrapped for those of us who may have followed our journey wrote about it on indieacers and medium and other places but we we came to life inside of a web development agency in quebec city.

01:38.46 developershangout Came about. Nothing.

01:56.24 Francois And eventually we realized the product was deserved a life of its own and we created a different corporation and scaled that that company as a separate entity from that web dev agency. It agency is called spectrum and kuaxity. And um, you know as we scaled the only debt that we had was towards spectrum and in a few years we eventually repaid it and we we enjoyed you know, being a bootstrapped kind of the underdog competing with. Big big giants who had a lot of budget lot of money I think we we managed to to be a cool actor in this space and get some you know developer capital and some social love coming back towards us so that's kind of how we grew we became profitable I think in the. 5 years in or something like that and then as things started to stabilize revenue wise and the team started to scale a little bit more we we got hit with Covid and if you're an e-commerce business. It's bittersweet but being hit by covid means all of your numbers are just like shooting up. Um, so it was it was weird right? A lot of suffering psychologically and economically all over the world. But our revenue our sign-ups are all exploding so we figured that we should own that luck and just like keep our heads down. Take care of our mental health and keep shipping good product. Good marketing. Good support That's what we did and 2020 we had our record year we passed the 1 million ar for the first time ah stayed very profitable. So very interesting spot. That left us in and in 2021 you know for about a year or so since ah, ever since I became ceo I had I had wanted to find a way to bridge the gap between snpp car's actual position. And its potential in the Market. So many developers would come up to us and say hey frank why are you not integrated with let's say shipst station already or why isn't there a native plugin or starter kit for next js or like you know all sorts of stuff.

04:23.64 developershangout Um, this. Ah.

04:26.36 Francois And I think when I when I when I was telling people listen were like only ah barely a 10 team people 10 team 10 people team apologies. They were like oh shit like I thought you were you were bigger than that and people thought you know stamp cart was bigger and more funding and had kind of a. Came with more expectations with regards to feature development support delays and integrations and all that jazz if you couple that with the momentum. Our category was having so let's call it modern and slash headless e-commerce. Ah. It came with a lot of opportunities and I had this in my mind. How can I bridge that gap because I I love our lifestyle business I love how how cool the vibe is. There's not a lot of stress and pressure on me and my teammates you know, but but but I still want us to to actualize some of that potential. So I started looking at different avenues. Lots of vcs were knocking on our doors and you know some? How do you call these folks like ah like Saas firms that just come in and then buy your saas and work on it for 5 years and then sell it. Yeah and a few strategic acquirevers.

05:29.12 developershangout Is not.

05:39.36 Francois Yeah, you know so bigger companies bigger like sister companies that could like literally buy you out. Um vcs weren't I decided against raising some money just because I think the kind of early hypergrowth dynamics weren't a good match with my my. My own psychological profile and my teams so we we didn't want to do that and then the other firms you know was kind of a option. However, eventually we were approached by 1 strategic acquiir which is do the d u d a. It's a site builder and and and things just kind of fell into place. You know we didn't want to sell however, and I remember in the beginning telling there was this woman emailing me saying the the ceo wanted to meet me that. This was a Summer of 2020 and I was like you know what? I'm not I'm not available until next year yeah so I pushed that stuff off and at that point I didn't quite know you wanted to buy snicker but six months later when Twenty twenty 1 came around.

06:38.55 developershangout Was it.

06:50.80 Francois They reached out and I was like geez these guys not give up easy. Um, so we started the discussion. The four partners said you know what I don't we we don't want to sell so let's just throw a draw number out there that they'll probably just refuse and they said yeah sure, let's talk. So. We kind of were forced to seriously consider this and the long story short is that we validated a few things first we said are they serious about buying and by having discussions with them and other people we realized they were very serious sent thing for the price then um. Is there a technical fit like would we see a beautiful product roadmap a beautiful integration between our e-commerce product and their web building platform and surprisingly yes like the more we dug into the product the more we found like interesting avenues to explore and then last but not least was their culture fit. Duda is a bigger organization. They're around 200 to hundred and fifty people they have offices in the states in Brazil and israel so and they've been around since 2 2000 and nine I think so you know they've seen their share of like software or eating the world decades and whatnot. Um, but but we're a very small team and younger than them. So my goal was to say in no way am I going to sell snpguard to a company that makes it shit. To work at snipppard you know what? I mean like this was important for me I love I love the relationship I have with work with my job I didn't want to lose that I didn't want to lose that for employees so we pondered this you know we we looked at glassdoor reviews. We met some other people in a team. We asked people who knew them.

08:21.80 developershangout Who.

08:40.87 Francois And eventually we kind of figured out that you know these guys were cool. Ah, if for the fans of the big lebowski ah, their doda is kind of a node to the dude the the character played by Jeff bridges so for us at Nepcar we always say that.

08:50.46 developershangout Um, yep.

08:57.98 Francois We take our work seriously but ourselves not so much and there was a fit on that on that level. You know I do to and the thing that sealed the deal for us to be frank is the fact that they they really respected what we built at sn card and they were intent on letting us continue to grow it. Like with more resources more backing. It's just that as we hire a bit faster half of our team would be dedicated to building a a native custom ecommerce module inside of doda using our technology and talent. So like when are you add all of these things together. Even if you don't want to sell and you. You take a lot of pride in your independence. It becomes kind of too sweet of a deal to ignore and it's not just about you as a founder. It's also about the the team you know some people stuck around for years with us and we were offering. You know, decent wages but nothing extraordinary. Especially not in the crazy ecosystem of a job market that we have now so by with us do the acquisition we could bump everyone twenty five percent offer stock options slowly but surely upgrade the perks so that was like a net positive for the rest of my team too. So we we decided to go all in you know and it spent ah we spent we spent seven months negotiating back and forthing lawyers fiscalists accountants all that jazz due due diligence everything that that you ear about when.

10:18.79 developershangout Well.

10:30.78 Francois Hear about acquisitions. We we went through it you know and it was very very hard and there were some disagreements between the part. The founding team at Sni card. Um, there was a lot of stress personally on me I was like end theling the negotiations and and and everything. And you know the big the the more you the closer you get to that closing the deal and having the these life-changing events and amounts of money dropping on everyone. The bigger like the more important that kind of gain becomes and you're afraid to lose it so psychologically I struggled a lot but I was happypi I pushed through. Like first order of business when I announced it to the team people sung their contracts. Everything went well announced it our customers no like big backlash or whatever and first order of business. You know I went to my mom and I said all right? So now I'm taking care of the the house the car and the insurance you know so that was my first first thing and like I was very proud of myself for that. And yeah, yeah, I mean that's kind of a fast forward story. It's a long 1 so I've been rambling a bit if you have any you have any questions or input man jump in. Yeah.

11:38.65 developershangout Yeah, no, it sounds like you know with this hypergrowth in ecommerce through Covid which you know everyone was affected by covid 1 way or the other you were even in the you know net.

11:44.54 Francois Um, yeah.

11:53.65 developershangout In the job realm in the net positive or the net negative like you either lost your job or your job became more important than it was a year ago or in the space. For example, you know snp cart ecommerce really really did take off um because people didn't want to go to brick and mortar anymore or.

11:58.27 Francois Ah, ah.

12:08.80 Francois Or couldn't yeah.

12:10.63 developershangout They had to shut that. But yeah or they couldn't exactly um so that's that's awesome to hear that you know I knew you guys were bootstrapped and and when I heard the news that you guys had been acquired I was surprised because because that was it always been your attitude which was.

12:23.23 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:28.92 developershangout Like hey we're bootstrapped and like we're a cool group but also after doing some research of like who acquired you it. It almost felt like it made sense. It just So yeah, it it wasn't like oh it's just some random company that's bought them and now snp cart's going to go away and we'll never see them again.

12:34.81 Francois Yeah, thank you.

12:44.85 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:47.60 developershangout It was the opposite. It was like oh they're cool. They're like a building site that you can like drop pieces in and it looks like you guys can still do what you do every day which is still be very indie which is like hey we're still a small team. We're still cranking out cool products and and.

12:55.53 Francois Oh yeah, Fairman yeah.

13:03.96 Francois Content. Yeah yeah, ah.

13:06.71 developershangout Yeah content everything all those kinds of things that you've been doing all this this whole time is not going away which to me is exciting. It allows you to still be that personality that you guys have been working on.

13:14.68 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and thank you for saying that I mean that was 1 of my fears. You know after all these years of like expressing our our pride and our how we how we managed to get by with ah small resources and blah blah and going. Oh we sold it like ah.

13:34.38 developershangout Um, right.

13:34.41 Francois Damn am I going to look like a sellout like what are what are ah people going to think and you know that that was core to messaging when we announcedunce the acquisition where like sn card isn't going anywhere like the product the marketing the support. It's just going to keep growing and hopefully it all be so for a lot of years right? We'll see how things go.

13:49.75 developershangout Um, yep.

13:52.88 Francois But if I'm being harnessed with you every every ecommerce company that had this Covid Boom going on during the lockdowns and covid right now they have what I like to call the Covid Hangover which is like okay so there was lots of money injected in the economy people couldn't spend.

14:04.48 developershangout Okay.

14:13.11 Francois Physically in the real world so they spent a lot online e-commerce companies benefited blah blah blah now we're seeing inflation rear its ugly ed we're seeing delays and extra charges for shipping. We're seeing orders not being fulfilled. And I think just generally speaking. We're seeing a lot of uncertainty in the economy and less liquidity to invest in like ah ecommerce purchases and this has been like ah like honestly just a punch in the face for us when we realize that our our fall numbers. Things are okay, but usually when we get to fall and we near you know thanksgiving black friday holidays all that jazz like things just start to shoot up always like for for 8 years it's been like that and now it's not you know so it kind of forces you to whoa reevaluate your your. Your approach and so like I can't only ride on that macro trend that macro trend right now is against me so how can I how can I make sure I succeed and where we're who are hard at work at Snprir trying to trying to figure that out and the good news is that there's a there. There's a lot of backing behind us now right? so.

15:11.36 developershangout Right.

15:24.60 developershangout Right.

15:27.10 Francois We have not only like financial resources behind us but also Expertise like some often doing like working with the data Analyst and financial Analyst and and know product expert. You know they have they have vps for everything over there. So.

15:42.87 developershangout Right.

15:45.81 Francois So I can turn around and get that that kind of help and and learn how a bigger company like as matured which process they adopted which 1 do I want to take on or not and yeah, a big big learning experience. A big big challenge for snart these days but ah, but I welcome it. You know, um. It's It's part of the process of like solving these hard problems.

16:07.13 developershangout Yeah, absolutely so talking about you know, having these backings and now having this sort of people that you can turn to what what does the the roadmap for snp cart look like in the next you know. Year or 6 I don't know how far you're planning out right now but like what what What does the future of snp cart as a product and and what do you guys? got got in the works.

16:29.91 Francois Yeah, um, that's actually a great question. So the thing is when we pitched to do the our snp card core roadmap. We call it snp card core now like what we do with the initial business. 80 percent of the stuff in there was already like appreciated and supported by dodo meaning eventually they'd like to see these features live inside of their own platform so that was good. You know, no need to go? um. Need to go and turn around and tell your whole team listen all of these cool things we wanted to do well we're not going to do them anymore. So so that was the good news right? now we have what we call the Jewel roadmap 1 is really about integrating snp cart inside of doa. I won't go like into a lot of length about this 1 it's basically like creating like the the right apis for for 2 systems connect having a new kind of codebase where all of what snp cart affords can live inside that codebase. Yeah. But for sncart core we have a few things coming up so we did the new website recently we used the dato cms and nuxjes in the frontend but some of the more important items on the roadmap are the improvement of digital goods. Like we offer people the possibility possibility of selling digital goods. But it it was kind of limited so we're incrementally improving that feature. Um, we have ah the big big piece is ah easy post integration so by doing customer interviews and i. I tried to adopt the jobs to be done framework when doing customer interviews and I tried my head at that last year and we realized that once you're up and running with snp card and you have you you have success right? So a lot of sales. A lot of orders to be shipped then. That's kind of where snp card's job ends meaning that the amounts of features and needs you have when you're selling and shipping a lot of orders like physically like the labels the packages the freights. The.

18:38.36 developershangout Yep.

18:51.38 Francois Shipping fees choosing the best company endling returns endling updates tracking shipping you know all that this is a whole product in and of itself and being a a bootstrap company. We we logged an independent company. We decided to go This isn't the job our product.

18:57.83 developershangout Right? right.

19:08.27 Francois Let's find a product that ends this job very very well and integrate with it and we we landed on easy posts for now we might integrate with some other ones. So It's going to be interesting some of the features of easy posts will live inside of snow car's dashboard but some of them will live um of course on their on their end. And the goal is to better support merchants right? because we're developers at Heart. So We kind of have intuitions or at least proximity to a developer's Reality. We know the bugs We know the debugging. We know the and the customization challenges they'll they'll have so we can. We can really build for them. More easily merchants. However, the truth is. We're not merchants like we're not running E-commerce stores. So We have to stay closer to these people and customer interviews is is 1 way to do that to to do is do this while I'm struggling and yeah, so.

19:49.00 developershangout Right.

20:05.30 Francois That later part of the funnel of the customer journey where you're all set up. The integration is running smoothly and you're selling a lot of stuff we. We're going to improve on that especially through shipping fulfillment integration. We're we're boosting a car teaming also so this is something that comes up a lot sn cut is very very customizable. But our latest vtree like there are improvements to how we end those css that can make ah Frontend developers lives easier so we're working on that we have some new Gateways we want to support some things like. Apple paying google pay and stripe that we're still not supporting. Maybe I should call the like the pay by installments affirm I think or some yeah yeah, this and then we're going to like beef up subscriptions and make it available on other payment gateways than stripe.

20:48.17 developershangout Yeah, if um, yep, that's 1 of them. Yep.

21:00.52 Francois Because that's like a very powerful feature in snp card that is good for merchants and good for us because there's more revenue and regularity and income coming in. So um, yeah I mean this is just like a tip of the iceberg but some of the stuff we're going to be working on.

21:14.24 developershangout So it definitely sounds like you guys are are all in. We're gonna all in on improving the product because the the the product itself right now I you know I used it for a video recently and and you know I've talked to.

21:21.97 Francois Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah.

21:32.19 developershangout Me and colby faac. ah ah friends so we've talked a few times. Yeah, we're friends so I was talking to him about how how much of a joy this experience it is to just be able to drop a shopping cart into a product and be like and I'm done like there's no like big.

21:32.49 Francois Oh yeah, cool.

21:44.27 Francois Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

21:50.22 developershangout Heavy overload. It's very very simple and if you understand the core mechanics behind it it. It is very good for those you know, easy to build ecommerce sites regardless of tech like I use next year and it took me you know I think I think I sent him a message and it was like twenty minutes later I was done.

22:01.31 Francois And go.

22:08.46 Francois The.

22:09.97 developershangout And I was like this is so cool like I'm so glad that like this is what I decided to use for a video and and yeah you guys have you know I'm I'm glad to hear that that improving the product is there. Um.

22:15.45 Francois Nice. Oh yeah, for sure and and and something that people don't always kind of catch about snp cart in the beginning is that of course like it's a frontend shopping cart that can be dropped into any web app or website but it also comes with a like hosted web app.

22:38.86 developershangout Yep.

22:39.44 Francois Which is the dashboard The Merchant dashboard where you can manage orders shipping abandoned carts discounts taxes currencies. You know all the stuff you need to manage a fully blown ecommerce store already lives inside of our Merchant dashboard. So it's not just a like it's a full ecommerce solution.

22:55.60 developershangout Um, yeah.

22:57.86 Francois It's just that it's frontend implementation is very very lightweight.

23:00.27 developershangout Yeah, and and that's the the best part I think at least from a product standpoint that I've seen is that a lot of the other ecommerce merchants Even if it's they claim it to be fairly Simple. You feel like you have to build and build and build versus snp Cart. It was like drop the front end in and that part's done and hey by the way if you go to this dashboard here is everything and here's where it lives and you can just click around and everything worked really well. Um.

23:18.37 Francois Yes, yeah.

23:26.45 Francois Yeah, yeah I mean the the market is crazy these days like I've seen there's there are so many e-commerce solutions popping up and I when I was younger I used to be like scared shitless right? I'd see. Ah.

23:34.28 developershangout If yep.

23:43.79 Francois Back in the day it was the shopify's buy button came out which was kind of a add to any cart add to any site a a shopving cart and a checkout experience. We were like that's it. We're done. They're going to kill us. They're going to take away. But as I grew older I kind of realized that.

23:47.38 developershangout Yep.

24:02.27 Francois The Ecommerce Pi is just expanding right? like and if you if you look at like boring statistics of the percentage of total consumer purchase going from physical but ecommerce it just it's just going up right? So especially when you're independent and you're not trying to compete against.

24:05.92 developershangout Yep.

24:21.20 Francois Amazon or shopify all you need is a thin slice of that huge pie and like serve these people well have a product market shit with these people and and then you're good to go right? You can grow up so that's kind of what we we did at Snp Cart. And now what we're going to see like and can this keep working now that they are macro force is kind of more shaky and in in play. But yeah, fun stuff.

24:44.82 developershangout So you you talked about how you transition from being the an intern right? Thus that was your first role at sn car all the way to ceo like what was the so when you took on that from going from I guess operations to leadership like how how did you manage that like.

24:51.14 Francois Ah, hit it.

24:59.76 Francois Yeah, yeah.

25:04.34 developershangout What was I Imagine that's a very big change to go from like being a day to day guy doing day to day jobs into this like you've got to look at this huge picture of of sn cart in the future. Ah how how did that go and ah maybe you can talk about a little bit about that.

25:07.99 Francois Yeah.

25:13.87 Francois And said.

25:19.22 Francois The yeah I mean to this is this is a learning that is still in progress very much. So um, so being a very small startup in the beginning was mostly charles and me and then 3 2 or 3 other. People in the first five years. Let's say so your vision of growing the company is to say okay, what are the operational problems. We need to solve and let's solve them quick or let's experiment quickly put stuff out there ship code ship content you know marketing. See what works iterate on that and like like your your ally in the beginning is speed right? You can iterate very fast and you're very very close to your customers and you can do things that don't scale so in the beginning you kind of internalize that to grow or to solve Problems. You have to do stuff.

26:15.40 developershangout Right.

26:16.57 Francois Have to write a blog post get some backlinks ship a feature create an integration like you're very very focused on doing things and actually doing them like and not just listing them in a roadmap or something. So. This is embedded in your core when you're like 2 3 four 5 people so that's for so 5 or 6 years five let's say 5 years that's what I did and eventually I became like the lead marketing so I had people to manage. But I was still very much involved in the operations like I was doing a analytics I was doing reporting I was doing content I was doing pr the kinds of interviews I'm doing now. Ah in chess I'm doing now. So very very still in in the ups. But. When you get to ceo and you get to right now I think we're 13 people and we want to be 20 by the end internet next year so it's not huge numbers. But it's big enough for you to have to shift your mindset which is my reflex when there's a problem in the company.

27:20.46 developershangout Right? so.

27:30.97 Francois Is to go Well you what the hell I'm just gonna roll up my sleeve and then just you know Google some stuff on how to do this ping my network and say hey I got to do this ad thing or I got to do this tracking thing. How can I help me please and then get my hands dirty and try to fix it. But right now. This becomes counterproductive when I do that because this takes away from learning experiences or just opportunities to shine that that now belong to my team and not to me, you know so 1 of my good friends I was having lunch with him and I was saying.

28:01.13 developershangout Right.

28:08.88 Francois Traffic is going down I think I should get back into that like marketing game and like take four weeks to do and he was like no man your job isn't to to go and fix the problems your your job is to go and find the people find the good people motivate them give them goals. Give them incentives be around them. Find them great teammates and colleagues that they're inspired by and like you're building like a team Now you're not necessarily like building I Know Content Strategic What I used to do off Content. So This to me is still. Ah.

28:38.93 developershangout Right.

28:46.40 Francois Still a challenge and especially when it comes to marketing you know because it was my quote unquote baby and like I built ah the whole content an seo machine that that drove our growth so when I see it suffer I'm like ah shit I got I got to do something about it. But right now. Ah we we have 2 talented persons that have. Um, coaching over there and trying to put in the right direction. We got a bit of help from a consultant that I know that it's going to maybe help us move the needle organically. And yeah, so that's the bigger thing. That's the bigger thing and then taking the actual time to not do busy work. Because I like I'm a bit lazy so doing busy work is easy right? This is you open your inbox you open slack and you can do busy work all day like literally ten hours a day I could do busy work.

29:30.63 developershangout Yep.

29:37.76 Francois So replying to this supplier handssering a slack machine thing just helping out here and there but you're not achieving a lot of things and you're especially not thinking about the mid to longterm So that's something I also learned from George was my ah ah.

29:49.67 developershangout But.

29:55.44 Francois The founder of spectrum. The agency that we came from and who was my he was my my partner and him and vincent and charles. So we were four and then george and vincent existed when when we did the acquisition and but but george was always like 2 steps ahead like of like strategic Moves. So. If like something was going. Not so great with an employee he already had like 2 people in mind in his network that could maybe come in if there was like client needs coming up. He already knew who you would hire to serve this and so yeah, he was very like. Strategic in that sense and I try to do the same because you want to build you want to build with great people. But you also want to like inject a bit of redund density in your team where at 1 point if someone leaves it shouldn't impact the whole team right? You should either have processes or a big enough team in place that can support that. Or someone else that can fill in that role so trying to see in advanced a bit and the the last thing I'd say is a shift from ah looking at what works now to looking at what will work in 1 2 3 five ten years and that's that's that's harder for me because I haven't done as much. But I used to complain a lot when I was doing all the marketing that I never had time to to do big picture stuff and now I have it but it's like you have to you have to not do busy work. You have to plug away like research and think and this isn't the same kind of work. You know. but I but I love it I just have to do more.

31:30.79 developershangout Right? Yeah I can imagine that being a very hard for for anyone that's been in that but like I'm the same way right? like I I always want to solve a problem immediately like if something comes up. Yeah yeah, I'm like okay all right I'm in the code base. Let's figure out what's wrong and and you know I.

31:41.47 Francois With code hit.

31:50.25 developershangout Before the role I'm in now I was a manager and I managed a team of 3 um, which was five when I left but it was the same thing it would be like oh hey we have this problem I can't figure it out and instead of being um you know i.

31:52.20 Francois Okay, cool.

32:08.90 developershangout Get right in there in the codebase start typing away and let's fix it together I had to like learn how to step away from that slowly and be like you know what? here's a really good resource. Go and talk to that Guy. It's going to be a learning Experience. He'll be able to help you out and then you know come back and tell me what you've learned or you know. Tell me if you solve the problem or if you need more help guidance. Whatever and it was so hard for me. It took me months of like actively being like so here is somebody else that can help you even though I Really really want to be in there and helping you with the code like um, yeah so I imagine.

32:30.85 Francois Yeah, yeah.

32:41.59 Francois Yeah, yeah.

32:46.30 developershangout Even at a higher level than that going from management to like big big picture stuff and thinking about two years five years seven years from now like that must that must really be challenging for anyone.

32:55.58 Francois You know another another thing I think we could add to that is that when you hire people who are especially the junior people um like your point of reference shouldn't be how you would have done this when you were still doing this right. Because that you had a lot of experience had had fuckups in the past and new newest shit. But that new person I feel like in the beginning I was very irritated when like the the work or the the final output wasn't the way I would have done it or. Like as as tight as I would have loved to to see it and eventually I realized that there's a lot of there's actually a lot of value in letting people do ship something out that isn't perfect but isn't bret Brand damaging. Let's say and maybe it's ah 607080 percent done or great and. Just getting some stuff out there and letting them have actual to do actual work living in the wild that you can do give feedback on like this creates kind of learning momentum and I became more less. Less worried about the the degree like of quality or the because I know that like if you're investing in the person this will come you know and and and if I look back at the first blog post I was writing these were shit you know like ah like we we we had a low audience. So.

34:15.15 developershangout Um, yeah. Um, yep, hundred percent Thanks.

34:26.79 Francois Thank god for that because they didn't see the the wax stuff I was writing but like I did a lot of mistakes right? So I have and and I that's how I got good. So I have to allow this for especially for the junior people so that that helps me a bit with management to let go right. And and and the the delegating part for me has been has been kind of forced upon me because I still have residual like concussion symptoms I did a few concussions like four of them and sometimes my energy like I just can't spend more time on a computer for instance.

34:43.79 developershangout Yep.

34:59.16 developershangout That right.

35:01.76 Francois Or I'm low energy or something like that and I can't do the things like I literally can't do all the things sometimes just makes sense to rely on that that team that you're building and delegate and so um, yeah.

35:13.65 developershangout Yeah, so during the pandemic. Um it for me, you know things like mental health and personal fitness all went down the drain I think it did for everybody. Um.

35:27.61 Francois Yeah, yeah.

35:28.84 developershangout Because you know I can go to the gym that I go to down the street or whatever you know all those things kind of went away. Um you ah recently hired a personal trainer at some point.

35:39.23 Francois Yeah, so that was something I told my close friends and family if I nailed this acquisition deal I promised that I'm going to hire our personal trainer to invest some money into what really matters So what like health right? and so I did.

35:53.94 developershangout Yeah, so.

35:58.26 Francois And it was a nightmare in the first weeks I wanted to throw up and I was ah I had ah I had a lot of injuries from my wilder Past. Let's say and so I became very ah scared like I'm scared of like ah. Like ah spinning energy or pushing on something or like I'm always scared and but to like hurt myself or worsen my injuries but this dude like yeah he had had some similar injuries and he had a very like positive approach to that and like he knew went to push well went not to push and. So I think having that kind of people guiding that person guiding me was was very key for me and I saw it was art in the first weeks but now I'm seeing like honestly life changing effects on my mental health. Um the the amount of anxiety that has just gone away. And some like some obsessive like objects that I always focus on and then stress and then get anxious like some of them. You know I am able to think about them and just not not worry too much or none just stress and I mean apart from I became a vegetarian also at the same time. So this might develop who knows um. But yeah I mean that's the the most the biggest change and for my mental health like right now I go to the gym and I don't even think like oh I'm going to get some gains and like I have a bigger bigger muscle structure. Whatever I'm just like oh dude I'm going to be more healthy.

37:22.11 developershangout Right.

37:31.20 Francois But especially I'm going to be less anxious and that's very very important for me. Thank.

37:33.70 developershangout Yeah I'm I'm very much the same way. So I also go to the gm and and my thoughts aren't oh I'm gonna be huge I'm gonna be this huge dude that's like walking around um massive Mars all I'm thinking about is this gives me mental clarity.

37:43.20 Francois So yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's cool and.

37:49.54 developershangout I get ah an hour of the gym before I start my day and like I have this this this mental clarity and I almost feel calm and I lost all of that in in Covid times obviously because I couldn't go to the gym and there was you know you couldn't buy gym equipment anywhere.

38:04.71 Francois Yeah, for head right.

38:07.34 developershangout You you know you couldn't buy a single dumbbell anywhere or or a bike or a peloton or whatever like all of that had gone and and so yeah, it really did affect my my mental health and look and luckily gyms in my area where I live they've been open almost a year now

38:12.75 Francois Not right I believe you.

38:24.89 Francois Core nice.

38:26.97 developershangout So so I've been been able to go back and get into my regular routine but people that I think people don't realize how much good workout can really help mentally set from the physical part of it where you yeah you know Cardio Health whatever.

38:38.71 Francois That's crazy. Yeah yes, crazy.

38:44.10 developershangout But like the mental aspect of of working out really adds clarity to it to a day.

38:44.37 Francois Yeah, and you know like when I was a teenager and a kid I used to be a very like like sports driven guy did a lot of sports and was talented in that but I kind of lost it with adulthood then.

38:53.97 developershangout The phone.

39:02.36 Francois When I read stuff about mental health when I saw therapist and psychiatrrist everyone was saying oh this is very important. It has to be part of your life igiene and ridgiment and blah blah blah and even I when I was talking about mental health like I did some Ta Moya How you say that like some testimonials and some videos and.

39:17.92 developershangout If.

39:21.37 Francois I was saying oh this part like mental exercise and fitness is very important but I was you know taking it very seriously myself I wouldn't I would go on long walks I would do a hike here and there I would do a little but never like real physical effort and like that like. Changes the chemicals in your body and your mind and once I started doing it I was like Jesus I should have like listened to my own advice more yeah for sure. Yeah.

39:39.55 developershangout Yeah.

39:46.79 developershangout Yeah, shouldn't listen to it years ago, right? That's always the yeah for sure. Um, so outside of of you know the health stuff I guess a big part of ecommerce and and then things in general is maybe the thoughts on on sort of. Bitcoin web 3 crypto all that kind of stuff like are you you keen in that space are you ah you what what what's your thoughts on web 3 yeah.

40:05.48 Francois Ah, yeah, get there is so many things to say about this. But so when we were a bit younger soilian uni 1 of our friends. Kind of fell down the bitcoin rabbit hole that was years ago and he was kind of our local prophet. You know he he didn't he never kept his mouth shut about it. He kept going on about it told us to buy bitcoin buy bitcoin by Bitcoin explained us how the whitepaper worked out.

40:25.65 developershangout Um, even a.

40:42.40 Francois This would like the biggest things is the internet and what's funny is that dude had given us like a bad and investment advice when we were younger and we had lost I don't know maybe 80 bucks. But at that time it was very meaningful in our network. You know we're like f you dude, we're not going to buy your sketchy thing again.

40:48.29 developershangout Um, means. Right.

41:00.44 Francois And eventually it was so persistent that we kind of all did you know and that was back when bitcoin was like hundreds of dollars. You know? So what I told him is like can you promise me that this is going to help me clear my student loans or something and he was like yeah 1 hundred percent.

41:07.71 developershangout Um, right? yep.

41:20.20 Francois I said Okay, let's do it. You know and it eventually it did help me cure that but now I wish I didn't use it to clear that you know what I mean Um, and yeah I kind of got into bitcoin a lot now. It's so I'm softly involved. Let's say like I old and.

41:25.59 developershangout Um, right? yep.

41:39.60 Francois I Read about it here and there so listen to some podcasts I Really like the ethos of bitcoin and like there is so much Serendipity in bitcoin in how it was created by whom like someone unknown Entity Satoshi. And how that person or group disappeared and never moved their coins and like the mining and the distribution was very very fair in the beginning and it survived a decade more of. Social political technical attacks. You know some would say it's and and I fragile I Love It. You know I think I think it's freaking great and I think it's like the best hedge you can have against maybe more traditional systems like. Not necessarily collapsing but struggling and I'm also a big fan of its ah decentralization and like resistance to censorship and like you see you see like kind of not fairy tales but staple tales in the bitcoin.

42:30.97 developershangout Right? right.

42:47.67 Francois Evolution where take el salvador recently like the whole country that Bitcoin has a standard right? So that this is this isn't a perfect story and there's probably some some wax stuff also going on in Salvador I don't know everything but like it's such a powerful story to say oh a country which.

42:55.34 developershangout Yep.

43:06.19 Francois Like historically at a shit economy and a lot of corruption and blah blah blah now that country is like is running on bitcoin like that's like that's a powerful they think to say and it it can inspire a lot and you've seen countries with a lot of like deflated or it. Highly inflated. Sorry um currencies like ah venezuela zimbabwe and there was this other 1 that I always forget but like some people were able to like save some of their life savings by by going into this alternative economy that isn't like. Centralize and governmentment control. So yeah, it's a rabbit hole I think people should definitely just like at least start by reading the white paper is satoshi and try to understand why people are talking about this and the myth that oh it's just a financial asset and it's too late to get into it because the price is so high this is bullshit. Like ah bit bitcoin is a cap number of of course they're going to be mined and it's a deflationary currency. So like value is cargo up and utility to you see it with people say oh you can't like buy a coffee with the bitcoin know that's not true anymore. You got the lightning network and you can do it in a snap. So um.

44:15.18 developershangout Um, yeah.

44:21.30 Francois Beautiful technology and people should really get into it now that's kind of my bitcoin I'm not a I wouldn't call myself a maximalist of any sort but like my leanings and allegiances. Let's say are very much schwartz bitcom. However, um, um. Um, able to see that there is if not value enough hype and capital and excitement going on in webtree generally for for it and to result into something interesting. Like is it's a very bubblebbish situation. You have kind of nuts mechanics going on with the Nftds drop and then people reselling it and people becoming like part of ah, an ifft tribe with the you know? Ah, what's the. The ape thing and the the lion the laz li ends and the punks and like I think culturally, it's very very interesting to see and maybe nfd's like become the way we we kind of have ah status symbols in the future in 1 way or another whether it's.

45:16.86 developershangout Yep yep.

45:32.41 Francois Metaverse or just like our our profile pictures and some Twitter or whatever I think it's interesting I think it's ah it's too early to say like if this is going to be a life and world changing thing. But I think dismissing it entirely is maybe naive. And so I looked into it a little bit I'm not highly, especially involved in the nfd community. But I think it it has a lot of potential for for many use utility cases and not just ah, not just digital art which I think is like a legit use case in and of itself for what for for that matter.

46:05.50 developershangout Yeah, yeah.

46:09.77 Francois And yeah, other than that you have this whole these old other ecosystem. So yeah, ethereum that has a lot of things being built upon it and that has for better or worse like you know, survive the this't a decade I think but like a long time and yeah, and.

46:24.80 developershangout A long time. Yeah.

46:29.80 Francois Is they're going to be like a very serious utility that comes from that I don't know but they found ways to to generate developer interest and investor interest and just tons of coins living in tokens living on top of that so we'll see and yeah I kind of wonder how. How this thing is all going to play out but like why not just drop 1 hundred dollars or 2 hundred dollars into just just like give you a tiny tiny bit of st and if you can't afford to drop that don't do it like or drop twenty dollars right this is not investment advice but just like.

46:53.14 developershangout Right.

47:06.21 Francois Be curious about this this this thing we're technologists right? We build stuff online. We build stuff with technology like this deserves at least curiosity. So yeah, that's that's kind of how I feel about the whole thing you.

47:19.68 developershangout Yeah I Um I mean I'm in the same boat. So I own a small investment in in bitcoin. Um, because yeah I believe in this same vein as you that bitcoin will you know it's never too late to get into bitcoin whether you get in now at Sixty K or you got in out a hundred dollars.

47:26.10 Francois And.

47:37.51 Francois I yeah.

47:39.58 developershangout Like yeah if you got a hundred dollars. You're in a real good spot right now and you've hold this for a long time. Um, so yeah, I've always been kind of in that space. Um, just kind of dabbling here and there I think Nftts are I think there's some you.

47:42.74 Francois Yeah, yeah.

47:56.62 developershangout Utility use there. That's not being used right now like the digital art space is super cool and I think it allows people to to maybe understand a bit more behind what the crypto space is um and I own an nft I have 1 um and.

48:10.36 Francois Yeah, me too.

48:14.35 developershangout Yeah, exactly I own 1 single and nf and that'll probably be. You know the only 1 I ever own. Maybe we'll see um and I think you I think your you sort of vice there of like why not dabble, a small amount of money like if you've got a spare hundred dollars that you were thinking about investing in.

48:19.86 Francois Yeah.

48:32.50 developershangout Stocks and shares of tesla for example, like if you wanted to buy a partial stock. Um, why not invest in the crypto space instead. Um yeah, you're right with technologists. We build did people believe that react or vue or the Jamstack was going to make this big like.

48:34.64 Francois Is yeah.

48:49.16 Francois The yeah.

48:50.67 developershangout Force into web 2 point zero right? if you look when when I started out a decade ago nobody was talking about any of this technology like javascript was still seen as like this red headed step child of of of the internet and you could only use it very sparingly and like everything was built.

49:03.40 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

49:10.43 developershangout You know from the backend and you know.

49:11.10 Francois Um, yeah, no totally agree and I mean don't underestimate the power of of culture. Also right? like ah you you see it in the web tree space like whole tribes and languages and acronyms and and memes of of.

49:17.30 developershangout Um, bright. Yeah.

49:25.69 developershangout Um, yep.

49:30.58 Francois Very quickly evolved and they have significant influence right? They can ah these things like let's say like memes move markets today right? It's not just like a piece in the new york times that you read that's going to affect whatever is going on like people and memes and how it spreads.

49:38.60 developershangout Um, yeah.

49:49.47 Francois This all plays out so things could go faster than we thought and to go back to the Jamstack I Remember when Matt billman from netlify told me like oh yeah, we we've been working with ton press and warner and. We think like the modern static web is a bad name so we want to like coin something that's a bit more catchy. They'll help people rally rally and ah he said jamstack and I thought to myself. Wow, that's a shit name but like but yeah, you know so.

50:11.98 developershangout Um, yeah, right? yeah.

50:16.93 Francois But then again I was also always open to experimenting with content and like placing long bets and that's kind of what we did at snffard and to be like really honested. We dominated the serb for a bitd there like not anymore. But because but. But you know and when when we started creating content around Jamstack. The biggest search volume was around Jamstack the guitar amplifier that was still in the surp back then you know so he had like a shitty mixed serp on google results. Um, but yeah, like.

50:40.94 developershangout So.

50:49.87 Francois Many of our personal growth. Our careers. Our businesses were positively influenced by this new this new way of building. So so don't underestimate. Yeah, the the next thing I guess.

50:56.10 developershangout Um, yeah, so.

51:03.40 developershangout Yep, yeah, and I mean I owe a lot of my later you know career to to the Jamstack like I I put a long bet on next when next was still in yeah, a very good bet now it was in the infancy and like.

51:09.37 Francois Yep.

51:12.83 Francois Good bet.

51:19.94 developershangout Gatsby was still dominating the space like hard and next was like this thing that people and I was like I'm betting on this underdog I guarantee they will be the future and I built a lot of content on next before it really took off in like you know nine point 3 nine point.

51:20.59 Francois Yet it a.

51:37.76 developershangout To space of next. So I built before then so I've been reaping the rewards since then basically because I was like that's my long bet is that like next is going to be the next hot thing and I'm I'm glad that I put that bet on because here we are.

51:42.70 Francois And.

51:47.64 Francois Um, did you see did you see like that the the guy from Sveld wasisco what's rich rich harris that is now ah working with verel. Yeah, that's huge right.

51:55.84 developershangout Yes, rich. Yep yep, part the cell? Yep yeah, that's that's gonna be huge in the space and I I don't know how many people know how big that's going to be having the backing of like Grandma and ver sale.

52:05.45 Francois Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

52:15.42 developershangout Behind sphal and having him as part of the team. It basically means that next and svel will be tightly coupled and you'll be able to build some really cool stuff. Um.

52:17.22 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah.

52:23.47 Francois Yeah, yeah, that's gonna be insane. Yeah, um, yeah.

52:33.30 developershangout So we're basically coming to the end of the show but I want to cover your top picks that you wrote in the dock because the top picks are exciting. Ah because I'm a big I'm a big I'm a big video game fan I'm a big movie buff. Um.

52:36.46 Francois Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

52:47.61 Francois Okay.

52:51.61 developershangout So let's start with your couple of picks that you have for video games which are super exciting for me at least.

52:54.48 Francois Yeah, okay, so yeah I picked ah I picked a that loop and then back for blood so that loop is this nuts ah like time loop. Like you kind of groundhog dating that you replay always the same day. But ah it has a road like road light vibe to it where some of the stuff you can't carry with you when the day restars and like it's it's. Insane the amount of new Details New Information. You kind of lore you get into every time you go through a whole day and the mechanics are just Crazy. It's ah arcane Studios I think it's the 1 The the people who made the dishonored 1 and 2 and like it really feels dishonored and there's even like.

53:37.29 developershangout Give him.

53:47.15 Francois Crazy theory that it is in the same universe. Not a crazy theory a good theory you can look it up on Youtube. So first person shooter I love it. It's sixty s teamed the music the calls the the design so the art direction is crazy I play this by myself mostly. And then yeah, back for blood is just this spiritual successor the left for dead a co-op zombie game that I used to play when I was younger with some friends and now it's it's a bit more sophisticated like there's a card system and whatnot. But. You know it's just good fun to plug a plugin with a friend and go through some missions and excursions and shoot zombies and talk. But it's it's actually kind of difficult or maybe I'm just like very new about it. But ah. Yeah, like you you cannot just mindlessly shoots on Bees. You kind of have to think about oh am I gonna throw this propane cane over there can over there. So yeah, back for blood of course very gory and violent. But I like I like the the multiplayer. So that's for yeah that's for a video games. Are you playing anything on your own. Oh nice, cool.

54:53.63 developershangout Um, I just started deaf loop which is yeah I I just picked it up ah like a couple of weeks ago and yeah, it's you're right? It's very much like Phil's very dishonest like you can be very sneaky and sneak around and it has that vibe to it.

55:09.83 Francois Yeah.

55:11.81 developershangout The color and the art. It's It's gorgeous and I've been really really enjoying the whole thing from the minute I started it I was like this game is going to hold my like you can just start a run whenever and like you can have a really like cool like you can just explore the world and look for tiny details.

55:21.49 Francois And yeah, it's cool.

55:27.86 Francois Yeah, ah a.

55:30.57 developershangout And the law the way that they lay out The law is so good like every time you go through the loop. You're like Ha I found something out new and then like that leads to another breadcrumb and yeah so I've been playing that a lot recently and I've been having a blast. So yeah I'm glad I'm glad it was on your list when I saw it I was like yes somebody else to talk to? um.

55:41.38 Francois Cool. Yeah, nice.

55:50.46 developershangout Yeah, and so the next topic you have for a movie is dune the movie I haven't seen it yet. But maybe give your and know thirty second review of of what you thought? Yeah, yeah, how you thought what you thought and and would you recommend.

55:52.52 Francois Oh yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Of 2 yeah, um, so ah, the director didn't even have is actually a quebecer right? if you look at any of his interviews you'll hear the strong tech quebec accent and I'm a big big fan like of his work. I think like the way creates set pieces where like ah the whole atmosphere environment kind of relies on very like specific colors and like that you can feel a scene is very. Potent like with with color and richness that I really like visually speaking I really liked it some I think some people criticize that it was too like mono chrome or monotone or something like that I didn't didn't even see that I loved it. So visually, it was a masterpiece and I'm a big science fiction fan. However, I had never read dune I kind of knew the premise I tried to watch the nineteen eighty s movie didn't kind of stick. So I I didn't know a lot about the story in and of itself and that. I rarely say that. But for me, it was a plus like I went into this movie with low regular expectations. Of course its that didn't even have movies or I had some expectations but I was blown away the actions great the way they construct the science fiction lore where there's this kind of. Not spoken about background where intelligent machines almost killed all of humanity so they banned them so there's kind of a low techch approach inside of dune where a lot of ah hint-to-hand fights and. Yeah, yeah, I really found it dope and the the score was was great too. So I think people should look into it.

57:53.31 developershangout Cool. Yeah, it's definitely. It's on my list to watch I just haven't had time I was on vacation last week I probably should have watched it then but um, yeah I also tried the same thing as you which is to watch the nineteen eighty s dune and I just it wasn't for me and um.

58:06.41 Francois Yeah I.

58:11.95 developershangout And yeah I never read the book I am a big book fan and I've never read the book and it is on my list of like old books to go back and read Um, but yeah I'm looking forward to to catching it and and seeing seeing what the hyper is about um, let's talk about robots and empire.

58:16.89 Francois Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, isaac asimov so um, um, my goal was to finish like to read all of the asm of like there's robots foundation empire I don't remember like all these series of asimov before looking watching the Amazon show.

58:29.56 developershangout Yes.

58:41.23 developershangout Um, yeah I think so yeah.

58:43.55 Francois Amazon the foundation show. Yeah so but I'm um I'm struggling to finish the Robot series I really like it. It's just like reading and not doing audio books is hard for me and this this last 1

58:58.34 developershangout Yep.

58:59.59 Francois Ah, robots and empire for the Robot series I couldn't find it on the audible or some audio version. So I had to buy the print and um I'm starting to read it and the way he develops plots that span decades centuries millenia. And it's in the same universe and it all ties back together like it's very cool. It's very very cool and it's kind of almost like a guilty pleasure of like thinking about the tree laws of robot robotics robotics and how it impacts the. Psyche of robots and what they do or don't don't do so I really I really like it I think it's ah it's interesting to see I'm I'm at a place where you know humans from earth have started colonizing utter. Other galaxies and systems and the the first the spacers the kind of the the early early humans who colonized it are kind of stuck in their ways and there might be a war looming. Um, and yeah I really like it.

59:58.19 developershangout Awesome. Yeah, it's out I haven't actually read that series I I know of the series And yeah I'm I'm the same way I haven't read them but they're definitely on I'm I'm a big like sci-fi that. That's my big thing like I grew up.

01:00:03.25 Francois Okay.

01:00:10.57 Francois Yeah, yeah.

01:00:13.20 developershangout Science My dad wrote read science fiction to me my whole like childhood and stuff. So yeah I'm I'm pretty lucky in that space and I think I'll have to add this to my list. This is why I love doing this podcast cause I find new things to read or watch um and then let's talk so you turn you said you turned vegetarian and you put a few vegan restaurants. So.

01:00:17.40 Francois That's cool. Yeah yeah.

01:00:29.18 Francois Yeah, oh yeah I I'm in quebec city but I'd say on a two thousand half away from Montreal and Montreal is a much more cosmopolitan place. You know there's much more diversity in all sorts of ways.

01:00:33.20 developershangout Where are you located just so people have an idea. Okay, right? yeah.

01:00:48.25 Francois And my my girlfriend is vegan so when we go to the restaurant we try to find vegan options and in montal is just next level compared to here so in in Montreal you have like the lola rosa which is crazy good. It's kind of a not high end but kind of fancy way to eat vegan. Bowhead pub if you want to do like nasty like junk food and like pub food but that is 1 hundred percent vegan. We were blown away by that and I went to the Green panther. They have a few restaurants I think in Montreal and like for a healthy lunch with some people was just great. So these 3 restaurants and in a manre. All I highly recommend.

01:01:29.20 developershangout Awesome! So we are at the end of the show. This is your time to plug anything you want. So what? what would you? if if if any listeners haven't checked out snp cart What? what would you tell them to just head to the website or.

01:01:32.79 Francois Yes, oh.

01:01:43.88 Francois Yeah, you can do snpar dot com and try to. There's a demo easy to access if you want to play with it if you want to learn more about the acquisition Story I wrote about it on my blog. So that's f Lainado dot com. Maybe we can links.

01:01:59.92 developershangout Yeah I'll put a link in the show notes for that 1 So that people can find it.

01:02:01.87 Francois Somewhere and and if you want to talk about product about marketing about startups about mental health. All that stuff you can dm me on Twitter I try to find some time to chat with people who have similar interests and challenges. And yeah I hope everyone's doing well keeping fit staying healthy. Oh I'm going to israel in like 2 days treelas. Yeah to see some folks that from do the so a nice trip coming up you listen james I hope things are good on your end. We haven't talked about tina maybe we can do this another time.

01:02:24.32 developershangout Nice.

01:02:31.79 developershangout Autumn.

01:02:35.34 developershangout Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:37.92 Francois But I hope things everything that are are good and I really appreciate you sharing some time with me here.

01:02:41.41 developershangout Yeah, me too I appreciate you coming out and yeah I had ah I had a blast The hour went past real quick. But thank you so much.

01:02:47.30 Francois Same yeah after real. Thanks man.